CSR Elite wheel benchmarked
Remember when I sad I will have something very special regarding Fanatec CSR Elite wheel for you, but then did not post it on Saturday, when embargo was lifted? I wanted to take this wheel review to the next level and thought this would be the way to accomplish that. We never see any real benchmarks in wheel reviews, so why not change that practice? Numbers do not lie.
This is not the full review, I am only posting benchmark results for now. The reason these benchmarks were postponed is because I decided to wait for a firmware version that would behave similarly to the firmware that will be available, when the first customers receive their wheels and I was told the one we have now (rev. 717) is indeed very close. I think the results are quite interesting and will not only inform you about the new wheel, but also help you understand how Fanatec's tuning options work and why changing force feedback strength in the game is different from changing it on the wheel.
Testing procedure
The only tool I used for testing the CSR Elite wheel is a program called "iRacing Force Feedback Test 1.53", which is a program created by David Tucker, a member of iRacing development team. The program does not really have anything to do with the iRacing simulation and was designed to quantitatively measure different wheels to see how they perform. This way they can understand different wheels a bit better and ultimately make them behave better with their simulation. Every iRacing member can download it in the thread David started on iRacing forums, test his wheel and compare it to a ton of different wheels that have already been tested and results stored in David's wheel database. For this article I decided to use two different tests - one to try to measure power (Test 1) and one to measure linearity of force feedback response (test 2). I will mainly concentrate on performance of CSR Elite, but feel free to discuss all the other wheel's results in the comments.
Because I do not have enough different wheels around me to make this benchmark interesting, I asked David if he would let me use his results on my website and he very kindly allowed me to use both his software and everything from his database. This means that I did not perform all wheel tests and can not give you precise information about the driver and firmware versions that were used. Thus benchmarks below may not be 100% representative of the current state, because I can not guarantee they were all conducted with the latest drivers and firmware versions. What I can tell you is that CSR Elite wheel was running firmware version 717 and GT2 wheel was running firmware version 681. I used the latest official drivers by Fanatec, version 115. Because these tests were performed on a PC, I can not guarantee they are 100% valid for comparison of performance, when connected to consoles.
Test 1.1: Measuring force feedback strength
The first test I ran is designed to give an idea about wheels force feedback strength. It first centers the wheel and after that gives it FULL LEFT, FULL RIGHT and again FULL LEFT commands with 300 ms of delay. The program tracks wheel's position and by looking at how far wheel moves during each 300 ms period, we get a rough idea about its strength and speed. Correlation between response in this test and actual wheel strength is not perfect, because not all wheels weigh the same and don't have same internal friction (Frex SimWHEEL has built in hardware damping, so its test results should not be compared to other wheels in this tests). Because measurements are recorded each millisecond of the test, it is also very easy to figure out the frequency at which wheel is refreshing its position and see how much delay there is between the time when wheel receives a force feedback command to move and the time when first movement is detected by the PC.
Chart 1: Movement during full left, full right, full left force feedback commands with 300ms delay (click for larger image)

As you can see, CSR Elite wheel outperforms every other wheel in in this test, even Thrustmaster's T500 RS, that was until now much faster than all the other mass production force feedback wheels. It accelerates very fast at the beginning of the test and only increases its "lead" when it comes to changing direction, reaching much higher rotation speeds in this short test. I am not sure which way the results would go, if delay between opposing force feedback commands was higher than 300 ms (such test is not available in the program), but at this conditions CSR Elite is a clear winner. You can also see how little internal friction this wheel has, when it continues to rotate at almost constant speed after force feedback turns off 1200 ms into the test. Same applies for Logitech's gear driven G25 and G27 wheels. When it comes to update rate, Logitechs win the test, updating their position at 500Hz. Thrustmaster T500 RS updates its position 120 times a second, Fanatec wheels communicate with the PC at 100Hz and Frex SimWHEEL communicates at 50Hz. High update rate alone does not mean much, because to my knowledge physics engines in games do not reach 500Hz, but in the end Logitech wheels have the shortest delay between when they receive a FFB command and when the first movement is recorded by the sensor, generally reacting about 10ms quicker than Fanatec and Thrustmaster wheels. Frex responds more slowly, but due to lack of tests I would rather not make any conclusions.
It needs to be pointed out, that CSR Elite's sensor is not mounted directly to the motor like on other wheels, so in real world delay between when you move the wheel with your hand and the time when PC registers movement may be shorter than these tests show, but I do not have the tools necessary to measure that. If sensor is mounted directly to the motor and motor starts to move because it received a force feedback command, first movement in these tests may be recorded even before the rim actually moves due to slack in force feedback transmission mechanism.
EDIT on 15.12.2011: After further observation, I discovered that with firmware 717 CSR Elite actually started communicating at 500Hz, as I PC receives new wheel position readout every 2ms. I am terribly sorry for the mistake I made. I ran a ton of tests with different beta firmware versions and unfortunately looked at the wrong data when researching update rates. This higher refresh rate also looks to have decreased wheel's latency by about 5ms.
Test 1.2: What about spring on CSR Elite?
I was interested in how turning on the spring effect would affect the test results you saw above. I turned it on in wheel's drivers and after that controlled spring strength directly through on-the-wheel menu. I managed to test response at spring settings from -3 to +2, but failed to test it at +3 because of a bug in the beta firmware I was using.
Chart 2: Movement during full left, full right, full left force feedback commands with 300ms delay with different spring settings (click for larger image)

Test results show exactly what you would expect, spring effect works exactly as it should and you can see how spring effect counters force feedback command, making it weaker. Another thing you can notice here is damped, high-frequency oscillation that occurs at the end of the test, when spring effect is set to a high setting. That does not feel very natural, so lower spring values are recommended, at least until there is no damper support in the drivers (I was told it is coming soon). Also spring effect gets very strong, when set to +2, so you would not want to use such high spring setting in normal circumstances. Most sim racers play with spring effect completely disabled in the PC drivers and personally I like to keep it that way too, as PC simulations do a very good job with FFB, without having the spring effect enabled.
Test 1.3: What about drift mode?
I also decided to run the same test with different "drift mode" settings. Just like spring effect strength, drift mode is controlled via the on-wheel tuning menu. It got added to Fanatec's Porsche line of wheels for faster wheel movement while drifting. What exactly does it do? Is it necessary? Let's look at the chart.
Chart 3: Movement during full left, full right, full left force feedback commands with 300ms delay with different drift mode settings (click for larger image)

Not much of a difference you say, huh? I think the part that explains how exactly wheel behaves actually comes after the test is over. If you watch what happens after 1200ms time, you will see that wheel was carrying almost exactly the same speed at all drift mode settings, including "off", but behaved quite differently from there on, especially after it "bumped" off the 10000 mark. That suggests that in drift mode force feedback motor "helps" to keep the wheel moving in the direction it is moved, reducing drag. It did the job very well in the Porsche line of Fanatec wheels, which were heavier to move, but I think most of you will not need it with the CSR Elite wheel, simply because it is very light to move and counter-steers very quickly, it is always in "drift mode".
Test 2.1: Linearity benchmark
Another quality measure that can be tested with David's program is wheel's linearity. We want to know, how linearly wheel responds to variously strong FFB inputs from the game/software (in this particular test we measure how much it moves in 300ms). A perfect wheel should be completely linear. For example: if it gets a command to deliver a force feedback effect at 40% strength, it should actually deliver the effect at 40% of it's maximum strength. Same applies for 10%, 20%, 30%, 50% and so on.
The second problem is that usually we get two ways to control the strength of force feedback - one in the game's controller menu and one in wheel's driver or on the wheel. In an ideal scenario both should work exactly the same and the end result should be a product of both settings. Let us look at what the test results tell us. I decided to run two test for each wheel, one at 100% FFB strength setting in the driver/(on the wheel) and one at 60% FFB strength setting in the driver/(on the wheel). (I used 100% and 50% for G25, because I did not have test results for 60% FBB strength).
Chart 4: Linearity testing - wheel's response to variously strong FFB effects at two different strength settings in the driver (click for larger image)

The first thing I noticed is how linear CSR Elite wheel is at 100% FFB strength set on the wheel. It almost a perfect example of linearity. G25 and GT2 wheels are also quite linear, while the T500 RS is a bit less so, but not too bad.
There is one problem though - and it affects both Fanatecs. See how their result changes, when we set FFB strength on the wheel to 60%? Instead of wheel multiplying all FFB effects by 0.6 and getting weaker, but still linear response, it does something very different. All effects below 60% strength are exactly the same as before, but after that the line is flat. Instead of adjusting all effects, wheel simply limits the maximum force it will output. Is that true? Let's investigate this deeper in the next test.
Test 2.2: Investigating CSR Elite's FFB strength function
To find out if I am right about what is going on, I decided to conduct a series of tests at various FFB strength settings in wheel's tuning menu. Here are the results.
Chart 5: Linearity testing - wheel's response to variously strong FFB effects at various strength settings on the wheel (click for larger image)

As you can see, results confirm my suspicion. FFB strength function on CSR Elite does not work the same way as force feedback strength setting in drivers of other wheel does. It only limits the maximum force wheel will output, without accordingly decreasing the strength of weaker effects. It basically acts as a cut-off filter and ruins that beautiful, class leading linearity that you get from CSR Elite at 100% FFB setting. If you do not completely understand this, please have a look at the "perfect world test results", that show how the chart above should look like. Is this a deal breaker?
While the wheel does not behave how you would expect it to, that in my opinion is not a big drawback, but you should be aware of how this works. You should know, that decreasing FFB strength on the wheel will only limit the maximum force your wheel will output and that if you want perfectly linear force feedback response at a lower strength setting, you should decrease FFB strength in the game instead of changing it on the wheel. OK? OK ;)
Does FFB strength function on other Fanatec wheels work differently?
After finding how FFB strength on CSR Elite works, I decided to test my good old GT2 wheel out and surprisingly, got very similar results. It looks like this is how FFB strength function works on all Fanatecs, so keep in mind: Lowering FFB strength on the wheel under 100% only cuts off forces stronger than the percentage you set. If you want to keep linear force feedback response, decrease FFB strength in the game instead of decreasing it on the wheel.
Conclusion
I think that test results show quite clearly that CSR Elite is the wheel to beat at the moment. It is exceptionally strong, fast and has almost perfectly linear force feedback response (as long as you keep it at 100% FFB). More about its design, quality, real world performance, etc. in the final review. I hope you enjoyed the reading and please comment. I am open to any critics you may have, as this is something new for me and I want to be corrected, if you think I made any mistakes. Thank you for reading!
Special thanks to David Tucker from iRacing for allowing me to use both his program and his data to make this article.
Sean Cebron - aka sonac









Comments
would like to explore ff dead zone
The following relates to Fanatec wheels only in that I am shopping for a new wheel due to issues described below. Maybe a CSR E is the wheel in need.
There is much debate in the rFactor2 forum about the "rattle" of the G25 and G27 as road bumps vibrate the wheel while steering straight at high speeds, i.e. vibrations when there is little or no steering input. (also about how the off-road forces cause strong rattle) I put forward the opinion that the rattle is due to a small ff dead zone that is designed into the Logitech drivers. (I linked readers to a forum post by a Logitech Support Team member who stated that such a dead zone in the G27 is intentional and will not be changed.)
Looking at gragh #4 is appears that the G25 does exhibit a 10ms time delay before responding to a step input while the CSR E responds immediatly. That seems to demonstrate that the CSR E wheel has no ff dead zone. I feel strongly that my deadzone/rattle theory is correct and would love have a CSR E owner test it.
Question: Has anyone used a CSR E with the rFactor2 beta? Would someone please do that? I would love to know how a 60s F1 car handles going down a straight at high speed. Especailly the straight leading to the Masta Kink. Even better would be for someone to do a subjective comparison to their previous wheel. (ideally for me... a G27) If someone does the comparison please set Steering torque filter="0" in the controller.ini so the vibrations forces are not averaged out.
graphs problem
There's a flaw in the first test where response time is measured. The Thrustmaster T500 RS is rotating through 1080 degrees of rotation whereas all the rest rotate through 900 degrees. Compare apples-to-apples and not "FULL LEFT, FULL RIGHT and again FULL LEFT".
Thankks
Thanks for the comment, it's valid and I am looking into it. I was told the test was conducted at 900°, but a small possibility of human error can never be excluded.
I am still trying to get another set of results for the T500 RS, because I do not have it. While waiting, I did some frame by frame video analysis from various videos on Youtube and am not convinced about invalidity of the first chart, because it looks like T500 RS builds up more speed after the initial 300ms, but does not take off that quickly. Please understand that this "frame-by-frame video analysis" is not very reliable or scientific, but it's the best I can get while waiting for the real results. I will post an update as soon as I am able to.
Everything is ok
I did the research, got two additional sets of tests and can say that T500 RS was indeed set to 900° for test 1. I saw some minor differences, but not even remotely close to the difference of 20%, which would appear if wheel was set to 1080° instead of 900°.
Regarding Data
Hi Sonac,
Thank you for the benchmark tests on the CSR Elite wheel, since I'm shopping around for a new rig its very helpful. I was wondering if there was a way to export the data from the tests onto a .csv .txt or even an excel format so that I could run a bit of data analysis.
As you've stated, the first plot looks very promising but from my understanding, I actually think the Frex wheel may be the most accurate of the bunch when it comes to force feedback. From my understanding of the test (please correct me if I am wrong), the benchmarking program sends instructions to the wheels to move Right, Left, then Right. The program then uses the built in encoders for each wheel to detect its current position. For a truly linear feedback mechanism, you should be able to find fit linear trend lines for the downward then upward curves (i.e. from roughly 300 to 700ms then from 700 ms to 950ms). Additionally, the right (or clockwise) and left (counterclockwise) steering response should be identical. Meaning that if you ran a line at about 630ms, the downward and upward curves should be mirror images of one another. From the plots, we can see that the fastest responding wheels are the Frex, G27, and G25 (turning around at roughly 650ms) followed by the CSR elite (roughly 675ms) then T500RS then the GT3 and GT2 (roughly 700ms).
Without proper access to the data, my eyes tell me that when it comes to the "mirror test" mentioned above, the top performers are once again the Frex, G27, G25 followed by the CSR elite and the 3 remaining wheels (GT2, GT3, and T500RS) are actually quite bad.
One other important factor is the "overshooting" of the CSR Elite wheel's response to the last left turn. This tells me that the reason the CSR Elite wheel has very powerful response (FFB) is that Fanatec has decided to greatly amplify the feedback inputs. While this results in very good FFB sensation, as you can see by the last portion of the plot, it also means that the wheel will often "oversteer." Usually you pay a price for greatly amplifying the feedback input in any type of system, think of getting very stiff (racing) springs and shocks after driving standard shocks and springs all your life. There will be some loss in comfort in exchange for performance. From the plots, I can tell that you will often have to fight the wheel when you are quickly changing steering directions. I can also tell that for small changes in steering directions both the T500RS and the CSR Elite you may feel a bit of lag and would therefore have to countersteer much earlier. Luckily with the CSR Elite, after you push against the initial FFB, once you countersteer into say a drift, the wheel will probably rotate very easily (since the FFB would actually help you turn the wheel in the correct direction). With the kind of response I am seeing here, it feels like you could almost just "flick" the wheel.
The T500RS on the other hand has a very strange plot on the countersteer. The fact that its response to steering in the opposite direction is vastly different from the first downward slope concerns me. Perhaps part of the modeling information from thrustmaster is that when you countersteer a wheel you do not get the same feeling changing directions as you do going to one direction from a "cold" start. This is obvious in the two direction changes for the T500 RS wheel. Their asymmetric responses going left then right are very interesting. While I've never driven very high performance cars (so I am uncertain if this is a true and accurate feeling or not), I can say with my own driving, that turning in one direction and quickly going in the other usually does have different sensations, but I always thought that the game or sim would take this into account (more than likely due to weight shifting effects). But since the CSR elite wheel seems to have its own "on board logic" I cannot see why the T500 RS would not do the same. I am 100% certain that even the cheapest wheels with FFB would have more symmetrical plots than what is shown for the T500RS and that leads me to believe that the response curve we see for the T500RS was intentional to give a better feeling for the wheel.
Back to the original point I was trying to make... I feel the frex wheel is the most accurate from the results shown. It has very good linearity and from the plots, you can almost approximate it as a triangle wave. Its symmetry is also much better than any of the other wheels (g25 and g27 very VERY close). The fact that it is the one that gets the closest to "0" tells me that the wheel is extremely precise and accurate. In fact, you can probably calculate what the offset angle is based on the construction of the wheel, the ballscrew construction of the frex wheel would dictate that the offset is about 1mm and depending on how the wheel is geared down, it could be off by just a few degrees. As expected, the other gear based wheels (G25 and G27) have nearly the same kind of accuracy (the discrepancies would be more than like due to any "play" in the gears, I'm certain helical gears have a bit more play than the straight teeth gears). The belt driven wheels on the other hand would be prone to some slipping. High quality belts would probably only show slippage at high velocities, not really an issue with how quickly human beings can turn wheels, but when you steer quickly left then counter steer right, those velocities are large enough to cause slippage. A good test would be to run the wheels full right, full left X 100 and obtain the offset angle(position) of the wheel. That will tell you the average amount of slippage you get and loss in accuracy. This would also give you a good measure on whether you should tighten your belts, replace them, etc..
Sorry I should stop writing... I have a ton of other things I'd like to say about the 1 plot.. I havent even gotten to the others yet. But I wish I had access to the data to make the analysis easier. At any rate, thank you for the great benchmarking and helping to shed light on benchmarking software for racing wheels. I didnt even know anyone tried to do such a thing. On one last further note, from a purely mechanical standpoint, the T500RS's response is VERY strange. I may actually buy one and take a look at how hit works, its very interesting.
Thank you again,
Paul
False assumptions and stuff plus my 2 cents
Actually as is written in the test description, the test procedure is left-right-left not right-left-right, but that´s just a minor mistake. ;)
But here is my reasoning, why your assumptions are not correct:
1. Linearity:
The test you seem to refer to, is "Test 1.1: Measuring force feedback strength", since you state those to be expected linear lines "from roughly 300 to 700ms then from 700 ms to 950ms". But this test has no meaning for linearity because it is not designed for that. It remains to be discussed how the test is done in detail. Asumming the program just sends the command to apply the max. torque the wheels are capable of producing for 300 ms, then there would be no linear response to be expected in the position measuring, because a constant torque results in an accelerated movement which in turn results in a parabolic plot. This seems to be the case to a certain extent. But anyway, the test description does not claim to have any meaning about linearity.
Second, your mirror test sets the line at about 630 ms which is, reading the plot, after the very first movement to the left which is commanded from a _stationary_state_, so there cannot be a mirror image after changing direction a that point, because now the command is sent to a wheel that is at the max. turning speed in this test (1.1) and has to stop first to then accelerate into the opposite direction. Had you put the mirror line to slightly after 900 ms then you would see quite similar behaviour but no true mirror since I still see a bit of parabolic response as opposed to linear. If anything, I see point or central symmetry (don´t know if this the correct term) if you put the centre point to the middle between the turning points just after 600 ms and 900 ms respectivley for each wheel. Each wheel would have its own point of symmetry due to different reaction times (not necessarily latencies!).
2. Overshooting (?!):
Well, what you call overshooting is Newton´s first law in action. After 1200 ms there is nor more torque acting on the wheel and its inertia keeps it moving. And now here is the point where there would be a perfectly straight line to expected in a perfect world without friction (up until the mechanical stop). Now there are two things that could cause the CSR elite to "overshoot" that much, one being very little inner friction of the mechanical parts and two very high inertia inherent in very heavy parts, i.e. wheel rim and belt drive rims. The 1st would be a very good thing whilst the latter would be the opposite. (But I am confident that the 1st is the case since after the 600 ms mark the wheel manages to change direction almost as quickly as the G25/27 and frex despite those being way slower in their rotational speed at that point. Note: a very strong motor could also be the cause for that and there might be differences in latencies, so this really is no evidence of the 1st being the case, but judging from some online fottage I still opt for low inner friction.)
3. Lag:
Test 1.1 is anything but suited for comparing latencies, since where you believe to see latency, I see inertia and hence Newton´s 1st law. And there really is no comparison possible from the plots, because all wheels have different inertias and rotational speeds, plus motors with different power/torque outputs.
4. "The T500RS on the other hand has a very strange plot on the countersteer. The fact that its response to steering in the opposite direction is vastly different from the first downward slope concerns me.":
See above, why the mirror test is wrong, look at 900 ms and you see the same only downwards. And this behaviour after the first left turn form stationary looks to me like high inertia and Newton´s law again, or this is a differing interpretation of the command sent to the wheel. While all the other wheels, after an initial acceleration phase, approach a linear plot and thus a constant rotational speed the T500 RS shows a quite pronounced parabolic response. If that is the true, then it means the T500 RS
translates the command to a constant torque whilst all the others would translate it to a constant speed.
5. "I feel the frex wheel is the most accurate ... (g25 and g27 very VERY close).":
Frex started off with modifying Logitech wheels and I wouldn´t be surprised if the elctronics and motors are the same in the Frex and the g25/27. At least it seems reasonable to assume that Frex reverse engineered those parts from Logitech but somewhat got it worng with the positional sensoring, just look at those horrible staircases, they hint towards low resolution sampling. And just looking at the respective plots and the great similarity between these contestants and comparing the prizes then there really is no point in spending a fortune for the Frex.
And I strongly disagree with you on the precision of the Frex because of those very staircases in position measurement.
6. "High quality belts would probably only show slippage at high velocities, not really an issue with how quickly human beings can turn wheels, but when you steer quickly left then counter steer right, those velocities are large enough to cause slippage. A good test would be to run the wheels full right, full left X 100 and obtain the offset angle(position) of the wheel."
Hmm, 1st, the only belt driven wheels that could exhibit slippage would be the T500 RS and the CSR Elite, if at all possible, because the GT2 and GT3 have tooth belts, which could only skip but never slip and skipping is quite unlikely. 2nd, the test you propose would most certainly show no slippage at all, since the only thing that needs to be overcome on change of direction is the polar moment of inertia of the wheel rim and the belt rims. Anyway I think that slippage is unlikely just by looking at some photos and by those judging the rigidity of the constructions. And if slippage happens the CSR Elite would be the superior wheel still, because it is the only belt driven one with its postional sensor directly connected to the wheel axis as opposed to the motor axis, meaning that in case of slippage the force feedback would be softer and maybe even duller but at least the position measuring would still be accurate.
Anywho, these are the things I wanted to put into the correct perspective and I hope it clarifies things for others passers by.
Thank you
Thanks so much for this long and quality response, it is very valuable. I started to write a response to Paul's comment a while ago, but something interrupted me and I never finished it.
Linearity test
Yes, if the linearity test was about the FFB, then it is irrevelant to compare the strength input with the wheel position, the only way to check the linearity of the force feedback is to use a dynamometer. If the command was a wheel position, then the curve should be linear.
Too be clear if X = strength, then the only way to mesure the force feedback (Y) is to compute the wheel acceleration (angular acceleration * inertia tensor == torque).
If X == angle, then Y should be as close as X as possible...
Fanatec CSR Elite cannot play small Force Feedback
I'm curious to have your expert analysis on the following Youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fmRG5RaH3I
Not much to say about it. The
Not much to say about it. The logitech wheel was running on 150% (driver) and the CSRE on 100% FF. The driver does nothing less than amplifying the effect which means it does not test at all what it looks to test in this case. Tested it as well with a CSRE 720FW and a G27 set to 100%: G27 did nothing and in the CSRE you heard at least the FF motors working.
Great review - it just sucks
Great review - it just sucks being somewhat color-blind while trying to read those graphs :(
Thank you
I will try to make additional graphs for you along with other promises I made in the comments, but please give me some time.
I also have to look into a problem regarding T500 RS results in 1st and 2nd test. A member over at iRacing forums alerted me that they are contradictory and lead me to believe that either first or second test was not performed at the same sensitivity or FFB strength. Because I do not have the T500 RS, I need to get additional tests from someone who has it, to re-analyse its performance and possibly correct the outcome of tests.
Max torque
To complete my message, could you please test the wheel with this little program Forcetest.exe
http://www.fs-force.com/support.htm#ForceTest
Could you use the "constant force" and indicate if you can conteract the move of the wheel with your hands ? It would be easy or no ?
Thank you.
I would be very disappointed
I would be very disappointed in myself, if I couldn't move a FFB wheel :) I will try to measure this some other way, if possible. Thank you for the program link!
Thank you Sonac ;)
Thank you Sonac ;)
Thanks for great test!
Thanks for great test! Waiting for full review.
Review
Great review Sonac, I would like to see how would you set the wheel on Forza 4, after all this tests you have done (putting together numbers and real life feeling on the wheel) then compare to the ones Thomas said he would post on his blog. Good work.
its interesting to see how
its interesting to see how smooth logitech wheels are compare to rest of the line up. I wonder if this has to do with different FFB motor that they are using. I myself have carrera wheel and I always found that my friends G27 was much smoother wheel but maybe just a little too fast for my taste.
Their test results curves are
Their test results curves are smoother, because they update position at 500Hz, that is the reason ;)
ah I see, its tough to
ah I see, its tough to understand most of the review because I have never seen anyone go this technical about the wheels. Great job.
Great job
Great job Sonac.
I really like your tests and how much work you put in them.
Just bought my SpeedmasterV2 after I saw your review and I'm sure will also buy the CSR Elite, but still I look forward to your full review of the wheel.
Thx and keep up the good work !!!
Great Review
Just to say great job! looking fw for the full review!
Great review - you just cost
Great review - you just cost me about $650 CDN :)
I have been a big fan of the site as well. Thanks for all the effort
How did you setup wheel
How did you setup wheel rotation for speed test? Did you set all wheels to 900* including T500RS (which is a 1080* wheel)?
900°
David Tucker conducted all his wheel tests at 900°, including the T500 RS test.
Thanks! I just finished doing
Thanks!
I just finished doing my personal tests and it actually doesn't matter in terms of wheel's performance, what range is set in drivers settings.
It only matters, so that you won't hit range limit during test.
Well... I was wrong and not
Well... I was wrong and not wrong, at the same time ;-)
It looks that +/-10000 value range is scaled with wheel rotation (so for 1080* you have +/-10000 in the test program. For 200* you also have +/-10000).
But it also looks like the actual wheel position is always the same, because the less range I set in the drivers, the earlier I hit limiter below some point.
The way I see it
Yeah. Windows always looks at all wheel axes as if they were 16 bit (65536 values). Even if the raw data coming from the wheel has lower resolution, it is always scaled to 16bit.
If you lower wheel's rotation to 400° for example, that 400° range will be divided into 65536 values by Windows, even if it has way lower raw resolution. That means that movement will not only be limited, because the wheel actually reaches the new 10000 value mark quicker, but also not comparable, because it will be recorded at a different scale.
What I still don't understand
What I still don't understand (and I have no first-hand access to iR forums, so can't ask David directly), which wheel position values are taken for testing purposes?
+/-10000 values are just filled throughout the wheel range. So no matter what range is set, it always will be reported as between +10000 and -10000.
By playing with different ranges, you will notice that it must be something else.
OK, you have 300ms timing but when you measure so called "speed", you have to measure wheel position that changed within that time.
When I offset my reports, so that they start at value 0, then during first "stroke" I hit 6355 value and that is for 900* setting (I have T500RS).
And for the next stroke, there is a change of 7908 (from that 6355 to -1553).
For 720*, first stroke is from 0 to 6265 (after applying correcting offset) but the second stroke is from 6265 to -3613 which gives you a change of 9878.
Here are both curves:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5144/t500rs720900.jpg
But if we scale that with steering range, then we will have real world values of how much angle a wheel turned during testing.
Can't edit so have to put
Can't edit so have to put another reply...
The idea with scaling to degrees might work, but it needs additional offset to match first peak. Then, both curves matches pretty nicely:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1736/t500rs720900recalc.jpg
Thanks for this benchmarks.
Thanks for this benchmarks. Even it is not the whole review yet, it is allready much more informative and professional than the current one in the iracing forum.
in regard to chart4... the Elite is the only wheel able to show FFB effects under 10% strenght?
Good question
No, it is not the only one, but others have weaker response until 4-6%, so it is not visible on this chart.
Applicable to console use ?
Excellent Sonac ! This is very interesting.
A quick question: do you think that those results are applicable to consoles performances of the CSR-E (PS3 and 360) or that due to the testing procedure, they should be limited to PC ?
I am intrigued by the results
I am intrigued by the results of this test. Am quite happy to see numerical confirmation of the subjective quality of these products. The linearity is great but I wonder if Thomas might look at the numbers and how the competitions' wheels handle linearity at reduced FFB levels and maybe change the way this is implemented to the Fanatec wheels in a future FW version?
Awesome
Sonac you are 'the man'. Just fantastic, your reviews show make all the others look like amateurs, even the paid pros.
Maximum torque
Excellent review with this interesting Iracing program...
But could you see how much maximum torque the motors can delivery on the axe wheel.
For exemple you can enable the spring force at maximum and attach to the wheel bottles to see the resistance of the wheel.
Profesional wheels like Sensodrive can make 7Nm constant force on the wheel axe. Logitech G25 just 2.5Nm. It's not enough to not have clipping on game and strong wheel...
Thanks...
Comparison with the regular CSR?
Very interesting stuff Sonac! Thanx for running the tests. Do you happen to have access to the regular CSR? It would be interesting to see how that compares.
I will try to get those
I will try to get those benchmarks, I do not have the regular CSR wheel. Probably tomorrow, as I do not have much time today ;)
Awesome! Looking forward to
Awesome! Looking forward to the CSR comparison.
Great review
Thanks for the effort you have put in there.
By far the best review for that or any other wheel I have read.
Well have to set aside some money for the Club Sport Wheel then, looking forward for the next part of your review.
Fantastic testing procedure
Fantastic testing procedure Sonac. A very well written and informative piece. Great work on the ffb, you have helped out a lot of Fanatec users with this work.
Well Sonac, that is one great
Well Sonac, that is one great testing there!
Good work mate, your testing will be very valuable in many fields.
Regards, Amar
Sonac, thanks for the
Sonac, thanks for the benchmark! What a piece of work. Maybee this also helps for all the Fanatec wheel owners in understanding their settings... I'm glad I bought myself a CSR-E (BTW: love this site and all the efforts you put into it, keeping it up to date!)
Really excellent Review! :)
Really excellent Review! :)
Test 2.1
You should normalize the test 2.1 results so that you can compare each wheel head to head. G25 has less power so it moves less in same time than CSR-E and hence has smaller slope in the graph.
So just divide each wheel's result with its maximum value and you'll get normalized results between 0-1.
Good idea! I will add a
Good idea! I will add a normalized test 2.1 later for better linearity comparison, thank you.
awesome work here man this
awesome work here man this was a great read. Hm, t500rs is not as strong eh that is good to have sol;id numbers.
Thanks for the data!
Sonac, thank you very much for the benchmark results. The FFB results confirm my suspicions based on my experiences with my PWTS and GT2. I always leave the FFB strength on my Fanatec at 100 and only adjust strength in the sim software because it otherwise felt like I was clipping the dynamic range of the FFB effects. In fact, when I adjust feedback strength in the game, my goal is to get the highest dynamic range possible, to get the most nuanced feel from the wheel.
I never even realized this tool existed. It's great to have data backing up my gut reaction.
Nice job
You are doing a wheel review like I always want a review to be :) A mix between subjective feeling and hard numbers. I was myself thinking about ways to bench correctly wheels (Time respons, inertia, linerarity, torque output). But you have done this so well, it is a pleasure to read such a professional review. You deserve my fifty f-wheel.com refresh per day ;)
Keep going !
I think you should zoom in on
I think you should zoom in on chart 1, the interesting stuff is happening between 300 and 350 ms. Then you could see the delay is in between the G25 and the T500 rs, about the same as for the GT3RS.
Other than that, great review.
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